Out of Spec: Kyle’s first long trip in the MME

[Wallace]

Thank you Kyle for your report and your opinion. I have a big issue about your statement, that elevation will be not calculated in the trip planner of the MME. I don't see any reason, why the proposed arrival battery load should be only 2% or 6% after a downhill path, but on the other hand Ford said clearly on a roadshow here in Switzerland, that elevation and temperature changes will be included in the consumption trip calculation.

Since I mainly use my vehicle for trips to the mountains and over mountain passes, not taking the route profile into account would be a major drawback for me. I wouldn't have the nerves to rely on my own vague calculations and simply ignore the vehicle's warning that you won't reach the destination ?. The same would apply even more to my wife, by the way.

So can anybody confirm the statement of Kyle's video at about 13:00, that elevation will be not factored in the MME?

As I didn't receive my MME yet, I have no way to find out except asking in the forum:

It would be easy to find this out: Somebody could enter the route from A to the pass-summit at Point B and see with how much battery he will reach B and then in a second step enter the route from A to C (beyond the pass after a downhill-run) and see what the promised battery level at C will show. If the battery level at B from the first calculation is lower than at C from the second calculation, then the profile is taken into account.

A friend of mine said that the accuracy of the battery remaining indicator of the nav on his Tesla Model 3 is about 3-4% (mostly the preview is too optimistic). I think that's very good and I hope that the same is true for the MME. Do you have any experience with the MME, especially when driving over mountain passes and on roads with large differences in altitude?

I'm looking forward to read good news ?

Best regards from snowy Switzerland

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[available_username2]

You know, I wasn’t watching the screen or timing the machine when I got this really fast charge. I plugged in at an outlet mall and went inside to shop. I got a notification from FordPass about 20 minutes later. So I might not be entirely accurate with the timing, but it couldn’t have been more than 25 minutes. This was clearly not a scientific observation. ;-)

the math isn't that complicated, and it just doesn't work out

60% * 88kwh = 52.8kwh

52.8kwh / 1/3h = 158.3kw average rate

That is just on the cusp of possible. Now 30 minutes at an average rate of 105.6kw seems very possible. So somewhere in between 25 or 27 minutes seems like a good fast charge

 

[SteelMach]

Thank you Kyle for your report and your opinion. I have a big issue about your statement, that elevation will be not calculated in the trip planner of the MME. I don't see any reason, why the proposed arrival battery load should be only 2% or 6% after a downhill path, but on the other hand Ford said clearly on a roadshow here in Switzerland, that elevation and temperature changes will be included in the consumption trip calculation.

Since I mainly use my vehicle for trips to the mountains and over mountain passes, not taking the route profile into account would be a major drawback for me. I wouldn't have the nerves to rely on my own vague calculations and simply ignore the vehicle's warning that you won't reach the destination ?. The same would apply even more to my wife, by the way.

So can anybody confirm the statement of Kyle's video at about 13:00, that elevation will be not factored in the MME?

As I didn't receive my MME yet, I have no way to find out except asking in the forum:

It would be easy to find this out: Somebody could enter the route from A to the pass-summit at Point B and see with how much battery he will reach B and then in a second step enter the route from A to C (beyond the pass after a downhill-run) and see what the promised battery level at C will show. If the battery level at B from the first calculation is lower than at C from the second calculation, then the profile is taken into account.

A friend of mine said that the accuracy of the battery remaining indicator of the nav on his Tesla Model 3 is about 3-4% (mostly the preview is too optimistic). I think that's very good and I hope that the same is true for the MME. Do you have any experience with the MME, especially when driving over mountain passes and on roads with large differences in altitude?

I'm looking forward to read good news ?

Best regards from snowy Switzerland

I think Kyle's point is more that we *can't tell* whether the Ford trip planner looks at elevation changes, because it doesn't give a "route preview" like Tesla's Trip graph does, where it lays out on the screen how the car forecasts your energy will be spent over the leg you're driving. We actually don't know either way, it's possible the elevation was factored in, but not battery temp, or not external temp, or speed, or any of a bunch of variables.

In my experience, there's a lot of trickery going on with the trip planner and range estimator.

I can leave my house at 100% and drive 10-12 miles at 70 MPH before 100% becomes 99%.

Do I have a 1,200 mile range? No. 99% becomes 98% in 2 more miles.

I set off on a 191 mile trip with "201" miles of range, and the car telling me I need to stop to charge. I ignored the car, and drove 5+ over the speed limit over the 191 miles, and arrive at the charger with 46 miles of range remaining.

The car is *extremely* conservative on its estimation in my experience, but I'm not sure if that's intentional or if it's just not accurate.

 

[available_username2]

I think Kyle's point is more that we *can't tell* whether the Ford trip planner looks at elevation changes, because it doesn't give a "route preview" like Tesla's Trip graph does, where it lays out on the screen how the car forecasts your energy will be spent over the leg you're driving. We actually don't know either way, it's possible the elevation was factored in, but not battery temp, or not external temp, or speed, or any of a bunch of variables.

In my experience, there's a lot of trickery going on with the trip planner and range estimator.

I can leave my house at 100% and drive 10-12 miles at 70 MPH before 100% becomes 99%.

Do I have a 1,200 mile range? No. 99% becomes 98% in 2 more miles.

I set off on a 191 mile trip with "201" miles of range, and the car telling me I need to stop to charge. I ignored the car, and drove 5+ over the speed limit over the 191 miles, and arrive at the charger with 46 miles of range remaining.

The car is *extremely* conservative on its estimation in my experience, but I'm not sure if that's intentional or if it's just not accurate.

I'm pretty sure it does use elevation. See here:



I think it's just very conservative overall

 

[BradCA]

the math isn't that complicated, and it just doesn't work out

60% * 88kwh = 52.8kwh

52.8kwh / 1/3h = 158.3kw average rate

That is just on the cusp of possible. Now 30 minutes at an average rate of 105.6kw seems very possible. So somewhere in between 25 or 27 minutes seems like a good fast charge

OK – clearly it must’ve been closer to 27 minutes. I should be more careful the next time I post. ?

The charging experience was really good. I was not expecting Plug and Charge to work and I figured I would be there for a good 45 minutes at least. So I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[BradCA]

I think Kyle's point is more that we *can't tell* whether the Ford trip planner looks at elevation changes, because it doesn't give a "route preview" like Tesla's Trip graph does, where it lays out on the screen how the car forecasts your energy will be spent over the leg you're driving. We actually don't know either way, it's possible the elevation was factored in, but not battery temp, or not external temp, or speed, or any of a bunch of variables.

In my experience, there's a lot of trickery going on with the trip planner and range estimator.

I can leave my house at 100% and drive 10-12 miles at 70 MPH before 100% becomes 99%.

Do I have a 1,200 mile range? No. 99% becomes 98% in 2 more miles.

I set off on a 191 mile trip with "201" miles of range, and the car telling me I need to stop to charge. I ignored the car, and drove 5+ over the speed limit over the 191 miles, and arrive at the charger with 46 miles of range remaining.

The car is *extremely* conservative on its estimation in my experience, but I'm not sure if that's intentional or if it's just not accurate.

My brief experience driving through areas of fluctuating altitude – actually, a there-day road trip this past weekend - agrees with what you said. The range estimate for me was pretty conservative which meant a pleasant surprise at the end of the trip but a little bit of nailbiting in between. When I left, the range estimator said that I would barely make it to my destination but I actually made it with a pretty nice cushion of about 30 to 40 miles.

 

[BradCA]

I'm quite curious. @BradCA, would you be able to share? Your car is setting some amazing records.

Yikes! 54% in 34 minutes. My perception of time is really off. ?

 

[BradCA]

The actual "receipt" will be in FordPass with the times and charge %s.

Vehicle -> Manage EV -> Battery Charge Logs, if you're curious.

I was wrong. I was there 34 minutes. Sorry about that. But thanks for telling me about the charge logs. My perception of time is way off.

 

[guyofthesky]

The charging in this car is a complete disaster. The fast charging is extremely flaky, and some people can't even L2 charge in their homes. Other EVs to my knowledge do not have these issues. Ford has had plenty of time to fix these issues...if their testing teams even drove to a few EA chargers and tried to charge they should have noticed these issues.

Just as a datapoint, my MME charges fine, both at home and on EA DCFC.

 

[guyofthesky]

If some of you also watch EV Dave, just remember he bought the car Kyle tested. Just trying to avoid people jumping to conclusions based on YouTube videos by two well known reviewers on the same physical car.

At first I was thinking EA was totally to blame for the MME's DC charging issues, but I'm wondering now seeing that other cars Kyle has tested on the same chargers charge well (VW ID4).

Could some owners on this forum report back on how the MME charges at EVGo and Chargepoint DC (not L2) chargers?

I know I know, what does a twice Tesla owner care... I'm an EV enthusiast first. I want all the manufacturers to succeed with their EVs. We'll need them all to transform to sustainable transportation.

" I want all the manufacturers to succeed with their EVs. We'll need them all to transform to sustainable transportation. " Nicely said! I agree.

My MME has charged at a Chargepoint L2 but not FC.

It works fine on maybe 5 different EA DCFC in the midwest. I routinely get a max charge rate of 90-100 kw, even starting at 40-50% SOC, which is actually fine in my driving scenarios. Most of the time, it's ready before I am.

 

[guyofthesky]

Totally agree, NOTHING is 100%.

I've charged a total of 314 supercharging sessions at 31 locations with my 2018 Model 3 (56,000+ miles) and had to switch to another stall maybe a total of ten of those charges due to either a dead stall or plastic dead bolts that came off another 2017-2018 early production Model 3. That's 3.14%.

My Model Y hasn't seen much roadtripping due to the pandemic, but I've supercharged it 11 times at 5 Locations. Never an issue of any kind, including charging at 0F (138kW charging speed at a V2 Supercharger (150kW max)).

Not once did I have to scramble and find some other location or charging network. Maybe that's what was meant by @malba2366.

Correct, never 100%, but never stranded or overly inconvenienced.

Very interesting stats. Thanks for posting them.

I would say that the Superchargers are excellent in reliability if that is the normal experience. Impressive.

Having said that, they should be that good, and in the future that will probably be considered mediocre performance. But as early innovators, I find that record really excellent.

 

[guyofthesky]

for sure it's fair to call out that P&C is where it should be yet - the ratio of failure to success is much too high. Part of me is hoping that when VW flips that switch on their cars that it will magically get better for us since EA might suddenly care.

but as many have said it's not that critical; you can even burn your free charging as long as you activate in FordPass (in other words not just by doing P&C)... pretty sure I remember @ChasingCoral said that Marlin burned his full allocation by using app activation in his Marlin megathread.

remember as gas stations you don't get "plug and charge" - you have to mess with the gas pump, sometimes twice (a membership card / tag / phone app, and/or a payment card/tag), to turn it on. so there really is no gas version of "plug and charge."

if Ford said "we are testing Plug and Charge but it's alpha" or something, I think everyone would be complaining less because expectation would have been set. or even said "we are testing it internally you don't have it yet". but there was an expectation set that hasn't been met.

the question is, how important is that missed expectation. Clearly different people have different opinions... owners on here that have driven their cars for thousands of miles already seem to be living without P&C since they know not to rely on it right now...

I really wish the reviewers - almost all of which are "professional" car reviewers - took a step back, said "okay Plug and Charge isn't reliable right now, I'll use the app from now on". instead it's just doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I agree with you.

I don't use the FordPass app, or P&C. I just don't care. (And it keeps Ford from getting a tiny bit of personal data, but that's my fetish, I guess.)

I use my $4/month EA sub, swipe the app after I plug in, and get charged $0.31/kwhr. It mostly just works...

EA's customer support is excellent. If you have troubles and call them, a person answers immediately and stays with you until it works. (I haven't had to do that with the MME, but I did a year ago in a Chevy Bolt.) If you leave a comment about a station in the app, even something minor like it didn't connect the first time and I had to unplug and plug back in, or it stopped charging me (but not the car) before it was done, they call you and follow up. (In the latter example, I got some free kwhrs, but it's pennies, so who cares?)

Impressive customer service, and I've never been unable to charge. Probably 80% of the sessions are completely without incident, and the others are minor glitches. Given EA's impressive response to my posts, they seem to care about glitches, which I find very encouraging.

ymmv

 

[guyofthesky]

I think the return trip, next week’s Out of Spec Motoring video, will be a bit more favorable to the Mustang.

1 - Almost every session without plug and charge has been great
2 - Great means it charges... it doesn’t mean it charges well (charging curve / random slow charging)
3 - P&C should have worked out of the gate as EA and Ford both certify this vehicle to be compatible. It’s incredibly frustrating that this isn’t the case.

We are past the early stages of EV charging, this stuff needs to be perfect if EVs are ever going to sell in any meaningful numbers.

I appreciate your reviews and opinions.

A question: how much of the various charging issues do you attribute to the fact that non-Tesla charging requires digital negotiation with a variety of different brands, as opposed to Tesla only have to deal with Teslas? Or do you have any knowledge of this?

Thanks!

 

[Ma9573]

I'll agree that Plug and Charge is definitely not where it needs to be. I've now tried it 5 times at an EA station and it hasn't worked yet. The first time I just ended up using the app and it was fine. The last 4 times I've called EA to try working through it with them. Couldn't get it working, but they've given me a free charge every time. Their customer service is really some of the best I've ever experienced, and I do think they'll get this squared away as every rep has mentioned they're aware of the issue.
(Side note: I don't pay for my gas/charging since I'm in sales and can expense it, so I've never asked for the freebies and will probably just keep trying P&C and if it doesn't work I'll just use the app. They're really a good company and I don't want to feel like I'm taking advantage.)

I acknowledge that P&C will be a nice benefit once it's rolled out for all vehicle manufacturers at all charging company's stations. But trying it during this early adopter phase does beg the question though: How many people would even feel the need to do this without the free 250 or 500kw from Ford? I know I wouldn't bother with it and would just use the app. It takes barely more time to use the apps than to initiate at the gas pump. Right now the only real benefit I see is if you pull up to a station where you don't have that company's app already loaded on your phone and your in an area without service.

I guess I just really think this whole thing is a bit overblown.

 

[ChasingCoral]

New trip, this time with a Route 1. Plug & Charge at EA working great for @OutofSpecKyle

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