Tesla Superchargers vs. CCS Network

[dbsb3233]

The Tesla Model 3/Y takes ~28 minutes to charge to 80% on V3 and ~30 minutes on V2

Slight correction... those appear to be the 75% SOC points on the chart, not 80%.

Plus, it appears they started from about 3% SOC, which it unrealistic. Most people won't plan to go below 10%. Although maybe that's just they way the chart makes it look.

 

[jhalkias]

Counting the pure charging alone, yes, but it may actually take LONGER to charge more often. You have to count the time it takes to exit the interstate, drive to the charger, get out, plug in, process payment, unplug when done, and drive back to the onramp. Might add 3 minutes, might add 10 minutes, depending on how close the charger is to the on/off ramps.

If you cut your (already short vs ICE) leg distances in half to charge twice as often, you need to add all that extra churn time that offsets your charging time saved living in the lower (nervous) half of the SOC range. (And BTW, if one if going to drive road trips with super-short legs like that, might as well save the $5000 and just get the SR battery.)

Excellent points.

 

[ChasingCoral]

It's a combination of hardware and software. They always engineer some margin in the limits so it's a safety decision on whether to unlock that or not.

150 kW vs 250 kW really isn't the point so much as how long it takes to charge. The Tesla Model 3/Y takes ~28 minutes to charge to 80% on V3 and ~30 minutes on V2 (can be 3-5mins faster or slower on either, depending on conditions). Where 250 kW really shines Is that first 40-50% state of charge that can be regained in 12 to 15 minutes.

The advantage is really only for < 50% SOC. From 50% up it's nearly a flat difference of 2 minutes. While that can matter for a splash and dash, if you're charging 10-80%, the time improvement is only 6%.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Just my guess, but I'm thinking no. Not significantly so anyway (maybe 150 to 160 or something, but I doubt 250 or 350). Have we heard of any BEV that's actually increased it's top-end charging power after-the-fact?

Do you mean other than Tesla? https://electrek.co/2019/04/26/tesla-unlocks-more-power-supercharger-150kw/

 

[dbsb3233]

Do you mean other than Tesla? https://electrek.co/2019/04/26/tesla-unlocks-more-power-supercharger-150kw/

"At the launch of Supercharger V3 earlier this year, Tesla announced that it will also unlock more power in existing Supercharger stations (from 120 kW to 145 kW)."

That's a confusing article. At first it makes it sound like it's an increase to the power the charging station is capable of delivering. But later it makes it sound like an increase to what the vehicle can accept.

 

[timbop]

I'm not sure how C&D did that testing, but here's a clip from Tom Moloughney that shows his M3 hitting 250kw at 5% and staying there until 24%. It kept over 200 kw up until 30% SOC, which granted IS after 4:00 minutes from 10% SOC (6:31-2:34). It also clearly shows the 10% to 80% time as being under 26 minutes (28:04 - 2:34):
I also didn't read all of this, but what one also has to consider: the MME will also have a similarly shaped graph. The ER will taper off from 150kw down to 110 or so very quickly, just like the tesla drops from 200+ to 150 quickly. The SR at 115kw starting point will take longer to get the same amount of energy as the ER, even though the 10%-80% is faster (because it holds less).

After all is said and done, the MME charge time to go from 10%-80% WILL be longer than if it started at 250kw. DCFC charging on the ER MME will also be significantly more expensive than the Tesla AND almost any ICE.

 

[jhalkias]

I'm not sure how C&D did that testing, but here's a clip from Tom Moloughney that shows his M3 hitting 250kw at 5% and staying there until 24%. It kept over 200 kw up until 30% SOC, which granted IS after 4:00 minutes from 10% SOC (6:31-2:34). It also clearly shows the 10% to 80% time as being under 26 minutes (28:04 - 2:34):
I also didn't read all of this, but what one also has to consider: the MME will also have a similarly shaped graph. The ER will taper off from 150kw down to 110 or so very quickly, just like the tesla drops from 200+ to 150 quickly. The SR at 115kw starting point will take longer to get the same amount of energy as the ER, even though the 10%-80% is faster (because it holds less).

After all is said and done, the MME charge time to go from 10%-80% WILL be longer than if it started at 250kw. DCFC charging on the ER MME will also be significantly more expensive than the Tesla AND almost any ICE.

So according to him, 0-80% in 28 minutes. Ford says the MME will go from 10-80% in 45 minutes. That is a significant difference when on a trip.

 

[ChasingCoral]

"At the launch of Supercharger V3 earlier this year, Tesla announced that it will also unlock more power in existing Supercharger stations (from 120 kW to 145 kW)."

That's a confusing article. At first it makes it sound like it's an increase to the power the charging station is capable of delivering. But later it makes it sound like an increase to what the vehicle can accept.

Other articles make it clear they did both.

 

[jhalkias]

So, just for fun, I tried a comparison on ABRP from my home to visit family in VA. A 500 mile trip. For the Model Y AWD ER, 9 hrs 4 minutes, 2 charges, with a little under 54 minutes of charging. MME AWD ER, 9 hrs 33 minutes, 2 charges with 1 hr 25 minutes of charging. Does that change my mind about the MME? NO. This is a two or three time a year use case. However, it would be nice if those charging times were more on a par with Tesla.

 

[dbsb3233]

So according to him, 0-60% in 28 minutes. Ford says the MME will go from 10-80% in 45 minutes. That is a significant difference when on a trip.

I assume you meant 0-80% in 28 minutes. Yes, definitely a significant difference. Although the Mach-e is a beefier vehicle than the M3. Weighs about 800 lbs more, bigger profile, worse mileage.

As a result, it's got a smaller battery (75 kWh) than the MME (99 kWh). Bigger battery means more electricity to fill means longer to fill. So that's part of it. But that 250 kW rate in the early going help too.

 

[JamieGeek]

So, just for fun, I tried a comparison on ABRP from my home to visit family in VA. A 500 mile trip. For the Model Y AWD ER, 9 hrs 4 minutes, 2 charges, with a little under 54 minutes of charging. MME AWD ER, 9 hrs 33 minutes, 2 charges with 1 hr 25 minutes of charging. Does that change my mind about the MME? NO. This is a two or three time a year use case. However, it would be nice if those charging times were more on a par with Tesla.

That extra ~30 minutes or so could easily be lost in other "issues" with taking a road trip: traffic jams, construction, bad storms, etc.

 

[ajmartineau]

I've been watching Kyle's journey cross-country on the Outofspec Motoring YouTube channel

Me too and I watch Tom's.
Kyle often unplugs to save 2-3 minutes of charging time but then spends 5-10 minutes traveling to a charger that is more than 1 stoplight away from the freeway. That "mistake" does shave off a few cents on a time-based charger like EA.

The videos you see on the webs are the best (or worse) of the charging curve depending on the message they are pushing to get their clicks. Sometimes a supercharger will hit 250kWs and sometimes it will not. The conditions have to be right in the battery and the grid. The comparison math is easy to do if you want to compare the best possible charging time of a V3 and a V2.

From the information that I have been able to piece together, the MME's charger curve will be very similar to that of the M3 on a V2 charger with a slight lead/head start do to the 150kW top speed.

Also, WTH is up with having to put a cold wet towel on the plug to keep it cool? I've never seen that on a CCS charger. Have you? I can keep some icepacks in my frunk (you know I'll be doing that anyway ).

 

[jhalkias]

I assume you meant 0-80% in 28 minutes. Yes, definitely a significant difference. Although the Mach-e is a beefier vehicle than the M3. Weighs about 800 lbs more, bigger profile, better mileage.

Yeah, corrected. My bad.

Also, WTH is up with having to put a cold wet towel on the plug to keep it cool? I've never seen that on a CCS charger. Have you? I can keep some icepacks in my frunk (you know I'll be doing that anyway ).

I think a lot of those are the older Superchargers where the cord is not cooled. The newer V3 Superchargers (if I remember correctly from another video) have a cooling system in the cord. I was waiting for electrocution with those cold wet rags on a high voltage power cable.

 

[CA Grant]

Hmmm.....stretching credulity there?


Taycan paid 66¢ per kWh

I agree. $0.66 is correct.

 

[timbop]

So according to him, 0-80% in 28 minutes. Ford says the MME will go from 10-80% in 45 minutes. That is a significant difference when on a trip.

Absolutely, although this is for the model 3 LR (75-ish kwh battery); the Model Y will be a little longer (95-ish kwh). Also it isn't likely on a trip you'll want to risk going down to zero - but the 0%-10% is only a couple of minutes so it's practically the same.