Why is EVSE so expensive?

[theo1000]

You can follow the code book to the "T" and still have bad things happen.

The intent of code is to allow for failures and allow things to fail 'gracefully'.

The OP thinks a $150 part and throwing money at the problem is solution. I don't think so. You have to understand what failed and why it failed.

Personally my money after looking at the second photo is the installation and the wiring is questionable. Without posting everything the OP may be in the same boat and not even know it.

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[OON7]

The intent of code is to allow for failures and allow things to fail 'gracefully'.

The OP thinks a $150 part and throwing money at the problem is solution. I don't think so. You have to understand what failed and why it failed.

Personally my money after looking at the second photo is the installation and the wiring is questionable. Without posting everything the OP may be in the same boat and not even know it.

I'm not the OP in case there is confusion, just commented and accidentally hijacked the thread I guess. The OP was questioning why EVSEs are so expensive, they were not advocating spending extra.

$15 vs $50 was the price difference in my case for the record.

I'll go back to lurking elsewhere now so this can stay on topic.

 

[theo1000]

Based on my personal experience specifically with a damaged plug I think they may be onto something. Based on your experience you feel otherwise it seems, and that's cool by me. I only originally responded to show an example that it's possible for something to go wrong; not to question your, or anyone else's, ability to know and follow electrical codes.

No doubt about it. But the code is never going to do that. That's not where Sandy or anyone else is going to find solutions. There are plenty of examples of $150 hubble's burning as well, due to faulty install or manuf defect. It happens. Followed properly the code limits damage. It explicitly requires multiparty oversight which in this case is you, the home owner. The AHJ's only do cursory visual inspections. Hate to say it but once you have entered the EV world it is hard to avoid your responsibility. Throwing money at the problem won't get you there. No different than buying an house and putting on the wrong new roof, bad things will happen.

Saying as a licensed professional, what I listed are the things that have to be done for heavy load outlets. Put it on your calendar and do it religiously or there is a chance the same can happen again.

JMT.

 

[Jay_in_Austin]

The stuff on Monro all appeared to be installation errors or inferior parts to me. A 50 Amp outlet should be able to carry 32 Amps forever without a problem. There are, however, fake parts that have the markings on them but have not been properly tested. Where there is money to be made, you can depend on someone putting profit above safety. While they did mention house fires, the problems I saw appeared to be contained by proper electrical enclosures.

 

[superdave80]

Just don't assume that a Hubbell super-duper-industrial grade $150 outlet won't melt down on you either...

 

[Mach-Lee]

They will pay. They still pay for negligence or ignorance, just not deliberate destruction or fraud. They very well might drop you though.

Almost all reputable products are listed anyways. The idea behind it is honestly good but in the end UL is another greedy cash hungry company. As someone who has been in charge of getting our products UL certified before I speak from experience. It's frustrating and sometimes they use standards that make absolutely no sense for the device being tested. Like insane inductive loads on an LED driver that LITERALLY cannot happen in the real world.

I'll second this. UL is mostly a scam. I've examined UL listed products that would never pass the actual tests. The biggest issue is they only test articles the company provides, rather than doing random testing. A company only needs to sent their best examples to pass, and then cheap out on the production versions. The cursory factory inspections are a joke.

I'll remind everyone the cheap Home Depot Leviton outlet that commonly fails is UL listed. Even with the screws tightened to spec they still get too hot because of a poor clamping design. Not sure how they got it to pass UL.

 

[superdave80]

I wonder if there is also some thermal expansion of the screw down terminals that causes the wires to come lose over time, vs the clamps on the Hubbell version. And I'm sure the constant plugging/unplugging of portable chargers doesn't help.

I think the codes for EV charging at home are going to have to be radically redesigned to account for an 8-hour, max amperage situation, something that hasn't normally happened in the past.

 

[Pioneer74]

The intent of code is to allow for failures and allow things to fail 'gracefully'.

The OP thinks a $150 part and throwing money at the problem is solution. I don't think so. You have to understand what failed and why it failed.

Personally my money after looking at the second photo is the installation and the wiring is questionable. Without posting everything the OP may be in the same boat and not even know it.

I personaly don't think throwing money at a problem is a solution for everything, but in this case I believe the more expensive product is a better one. The ends of the screws contacting and pinching the conductor on the more inexpensive device is what convinced me to go with the Hubbell 9450.

Everybody can have their own opinion and do what you want. I'll spend a little bit more so I can sleep a little better at night. I've had the misfortune of having a house fire once. Luckily I only lost all my possessions and no lives were lost. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

 

[kltye]

I personaly don't think throwing money at a problem is a solution for everything, but in this case I believe the more expensive product is a better one. The ends of the screws contacting and pinching the conductor on the more inexpensive device is what convinced me to go with the Hubbell 9450.

Everybody can have their own opinion and do what you want. I'll spend a little bit more so I can sleep a little better at night. I've had the misfortune of having a house fire once. Luckily I only lost all my possessions and no lives were lost. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

As is commonly said around here, we've bought a 50-60-70k car - why cheap out on the EVSE/wiring?

 

[mkhuffman]

Don't agree. I have 6 EV's and put over 5000 miles on them over the average month and I barely use my EVSE's, maybe 4-5 hours in a day on average. mostly less when I DCFC.

Think about it. Most folks drive maybe 2000 miles a month. Even a 2.0 mpk on EV means 1000 kwh a month. Averages out about 30 kwh per day or about 3-4 hours of EVSE use per day. This is a rounding error. Just because you may do it in 8 hour chunks doesn't justify your logic.

WRT to plug temprature it is rated to operate up to 75C. It is designed to run warm and cool itself. Entire reason for the metal box etc. Hot enough to cook and egg and it is designed to operate that way. And tested with million's no billions of test cycles. What do you have to back up your logic.

Put it to you that the failures have to a T been install errors, and failures to re-torque the lugs every so often, which the code requires, remember....

This is the sort of needless unproven alarmism that comes from 'that' company. You have posted nothing to back up your unfounded claims except 'I think so'.

Again this is a Ford forum so we are reality based here...

I read the debate/conversation you had with Evan on this topic. So I am up to speed on your position. I generally agree with you, except there are three areas where you are absolutely incorrect.

1. The amount of power per month is irrelevant. What matters is continuous current and the length of time it is continuous. Your dryer might be running 20 hours per day (wow, you have a lot of laundry), but the current draw is not constant. A EVSE charging a BEV draws a constant, steady current. And 40 Amps at 240 Volts for 8 hours is much, much more stressful on an outlet than 30 Amps off and on for several times an hour for 8 hours. You seem to understand a lot about wiring and the NEC, so I am surprised this point escapes you.

2. The temperature rating is not what I am talking about. No plug in an outlet should get hot, regardless of the temperature rating for the outlet. If it gets hot, something is wrong. Charge your MME for 4 hours and then unplug your EVSE. Touch the blades on the plug - are they hot? Mine are barely warm. If they are hot, maybe it isn't the outlet that is the problem, but something is wrong and you should check it out. If you think 14-50 outlets getting hot is normal, then I am worried about your safety even more than I was before. It is not normal.

3. There is definitely a difference between the $10 Home Depot 14-50 outlet and a more expensive industrial outlet. You say there is no difference. That is simply not true. You can argue that the differences don't matter, and that the cheaper outlet is fine, but they are definitely not made the same way. If you think they are, you have not actually examined one. I am not saying the industrial outlet can't fail, I am simply stating it is more robust. And it is, definitely. And my opinion is the industrial outlet is more safe for people who put a lot of plug/unplug cycles on the outlet. That is my opinion. You are free do disagree with my opinion, but you cannot say the outlets are the same. That is factually incorrect.

So where we generally agree is around the ratings and whether or not the cheaper outlet is sufficient for EV use. I agree with you that if it is properly installed, it should be fine.

Personally I didn't get the industrial outlet for the three installations I did. But I am not stressing them with a lot of plug/unplug cycles, and the plug I am using is an industrial plug. It is very robust. And I check the blades every time I unplug to make sure they are not hot. It is barely warm, as it should be.

 

[CompilerBreak]

To the original question, analogy I'd use: a good 1000W power supply for a gaming pc runs $200-300 (or more, if you so choose) and they're also designed for hours of constant use. Getting ~10x the throughput for only ~3x the price seems like quite the deal to me

 

[devmach-e]

To the original question, analogy I'd use: a good 1000W power supply for a gaming pc runs $200-300 (or more, if you so choose) and they're also designed for hours of constant use. Getting ~10x the throughput for only ~3x the price seems like quite the deal to me

Playing devil's advocate here: a 1000W PC power supply is converting AC into various levels of DC. So there is "work" being done there. Whereas with the EVSE, it is basically a passive device that communicates to the car how much AC current the car can safely draw from the EVSE, control circuitry to allow power to flow (relays/contactors), and some other basic safety stuff. It doesn't do any sort of AC to DC conversion, unless it is to run the basic circuitry of the device (smart or dumb).

But, as others have said, a lot of the price we're paying for in an EVSE is the engineering design, certification, and building of it. While copper cable can be had for X amount per foot, that doesn't include the cost to manufacture a single piece of cable that includes 5 different pieces of wiring in a well protected outer sheath that has to withstand being driven over, flexed hundreds, if not thousands of times over its lifetime, and the elements. The cost of the copper is just one aspect. For outdoor units, it has to be engineered/certified to withstand the elements. That's not super cheap, either.

I paid $500 for my first 30A EVSE with an 18-foot cord. I happily "paid" $700 for a 32A EVSE with a 25 foot cord. And when the time comes, I'll happily pay nearly $1000 for a dual-headed 40A power sharing one when we get a second EV.

 

[Raymondjram]

My JuiceBox 16 kW Level 2 EVSE cost me just $200 from a kit that was on Kickstarter in 2014. I set it up initially for just 7.2 kW on a 40 A breaker and finished it in December 2014. Then in January 2015 Chevy presented the Bolt, which can take up 7.2 kW, so I guessed the future. I wired it up for 80 A inside, so all I need is a new EVSE cable and a 80 A J1772 plug for future EVs.


I can probably resell it for over $1000 now after rewiring it for the full 16 kW. It is inside a large cylindrical case shaped and painted as a huge Duracell "Coppertop".

 

[Raymondjram]

When I junked my 2012 Leviton 16-amp permanent wall EVSE for the Grizzly-E, I opened it up. This well-built steel wall box was about 90% empty inside. It had one fairly small printed circuit board, several connectors for the two cables, one electric winding, and two sizable (not too sizable) thick metal donuts around the several wires. Again, 80 - 90% open space in there. Let's remember, that was a 2012 era "dumb" EVSE. The Grizzly-E, which I also opened to hard-wire it, has several printed circuit boards but is about 1/2 the size of the old Leviton box, so its inside space is much more filled up.

Those are not metal "donuts". They are current sensors . I know because I built a Juice Box EVSE from a kit.

 

[rcechinel]

All that was said, but I also think the standard must have an impact. A Tesla wall charger is only $400.

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