Mach-E caught fire in Gdańsk, Poland

[A-A-Ron]

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225037/how-much-you-should-worry-about-ev-fires/

Ironically, the rarity of EV fires also makes them a more newsworthy novelty. Plus, I think the big deal with EV fires right now is that they can be more difficult to fight and many fire departments still lack the training and equipment to properly fight them. Fortunately, it's an issue that will be resolved over time, as EV adoption grows, but I expect we'll see the negative EV fire coverage continue for a while until people get bored with the coverage.

Sponsored

 

[mkhuffman]

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225037/how-much-you-should-worry-about-ev-fires/

On a side note, I had a diesel fuel leak in my E320 at the injectors on top of the engine. It never caught on fire, but I had smoke coming out from under the hood when things got hot. I drove it like that for a few days before getting it fixed. That was a freaking expensive repair, and apparently a fairly common problem with the E320 as they age. And mine had a lot of miles on it at the time.

There are many more potential causes for fire in a ICE, so it does make intuitive sense that there would be more fires. However, I wonder if that is true for accidents.

The battery is a larger part of the car than the gas tank, so it seems like it would be more likely to be damaged in a crash. It would be interesting to see the data for crashes, and how many cause the battery to overheat compared with ICE crashes and gas fires. Most ICE fires I have seen were stand alone vehicles, not accidents. But my experience is certainly subjective, not objective.

I suspect over time, and with improved battery technology, the risk of fires will go down significantly. Meanwhile, it cracked me up to see a sign banning Chevy Bolt cars from the parking garage at the airport. They took that sign away now, but it was up for a while. Hilarious.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I trained as a firefighter for a while before finishing college.

The standard procedure for a vehicle fire way back then was to prepare yourself to witness the worst. Most such fires were out before we could get to them because they had burned themselves (and too often their occupants) to a pile of rubble within a minute or two.

It's impressive to me the fire resistance modern vehicles have compared with those from a few decades ago. A two-hour fight with a vehicle fire was unheard of in my training.

 

[Keeperofthe7keys]

I suspect over time, and with improved battery technology, the risk of fires will go down significantly. Meanwhile, it cracked me up to see a sign banning Chevy Bolt cars from the parking garage at the airport. They took that sign away now, but it was up for a while. Hilarious.

Yeah, especially if LFP is going to become the norm for most applications. What's also funny about the Bolt recall is that the fire rate was only 1/4 that of ICE vehicles. Which is a significant increase over EV baseline and obviously battery fires are a bigger deal to put out and that they can occur when the car is just sitting is a significant scare factor. But any individual car was quite unlikely to experience a fire.

 

[Mach1E]

Yeah, especially if LFP is going to become the norm for most applications. What's also funny about the Bolt recall is that the fire rate was only 1/4 that of ICE vehicles. Which is a significant increase over EV baseline and obviously battery fires are a bigger deal to put out and that they can occur when the car is just sitting is a significant scare factor. But any individual car was quite unlikely to experience a fire.

What’s notable isn’t how many fires there are.

It’s how bad the fires are and what causes them.

In the case of the Bolt- spontaneous combustion is particularly bad, even if it’s rare.

 

[dtbaker61]

I hope that @Ford Motor Company takes this opportunity to get their hands on that vehicle, take it apart, and figure out what the root cause of the fire was.... and then publish it. It might remove a lot of the random guesses and concerns.

Second, I hope that Ford releases a 'first responder' guide & training video... including the location of the HV disconnect (hidden under frunk beauty cover), proper procedure for tow truck divers to disconnect HV in cases of crashes to prevent fires from shorts outside the battery tray from body damage, how to extinguish/contain fires once they start, etc.

I just did a little reading.... and was surprised to find that typical foam used for electrical fires *probably wont* work on Li battery fires since once they get going they genererate their own oxygen ?! I did find one article indicating there is a product that is designed to slide under the car, punch up into the battery tray, and pump the battery tray full of water..... Has anyone else found 'recommended' new tools for fire fighters? https://www.keloland.com/keloland-com-original/how-are-electric-vehicle-fires-put-out/

 

[generaltso]

I hope that @Ford Motor Company takes this opportunity to get their hands on that vehicle, take it apart, and figure out what the root cause of the fire was.... and then publish it.

They won't. But they'd be happy to collect that driver's VIN and dealership info to look into the concern on their end.

 

[Maquis]

Ironically, the rarity of EV fires also makes them a more newsworthy novelty. Plus, I think the big deal with EV fires right now is that they can be more difficult to fight and many fire departments still lack the training and equipment to properly fight them. Fortunately, it's an issue that will be resolved over time, as EV adoption grows, but I expect we'll see the negative EV fire coverage continue for a while until people get bored with the coverage.

Battery fires aren’t difficult to fight as far as technique is concerned. What’s required is large quantities of water. Like 12,000+ gallons. The average urban tanker truck can carry about 5,000 gallons, for reference. Many are smaller than that.

Or just let it burn if there is nothing nearby threatened by the fire. Once the battery starts burning, the car is a total loss.

 

[dtbaker61]

Battery fires aren’t difficult to fight as far as technique is concerned. What’s required is large quantities of water. Like 12,000+ gallons. The average urban tanker truck can carry about 5,000 gallons, for reference. Many are smaller than that.

Or just let it burn if there is nothing nearby threatened by the fire. Once the battery starts burning, the car is a total loss.

this product is claiming they can put out a battery fire in 45 minutes with 500 gallons of water.

... slide under the car, punch up into the battery tray, and pump the battery tray full of water..... Has anyone else found any other 'recommended' new tools for fire fighters? https://www.keloland.com/keloland-com-original/how-are-electric-vehicle-fires-put-out/

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Second, I hope that Ford releases a 'first responder' guide & training video... including the location of the HV disconnect (hidden under frunk beauty cover), proper procedure for tow truck divers to disconnect HV in cases of crashes to prevent fires from shorts outside the battery tray from body damage, how to extinguish/contain fires once they start, etc.

Emergency Response Guides (ERGs) are standard for all P/H/BEV manufacturers. ISO has a set of standards for the ERGs and US vehicles are expected to follow that standard. The ISO standards were updated in 2022 and the ERGs for Ford's Mustang and earlier EVs are not fully compliant with the new standards, but the ERGs are in pretty good shape--they're just a little less easy to read.

The incident commander needs to have read the ERG or at least familiarized themselves with the basics.

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) provides a number of specific trainings, and I believe various manufacturers do as well. I do not know if Ford provides in-person training nor if they provide video training, but I'd be surprised if they don't.

Ford has almost certainly worked with a series of fire experts on how to protect responders from their vehicles to the extent possible, how to write the emergency response guides, and how to improve safety.

Usually a manufacturer engineer will accompany the NTSB and local authorities during an after action assessment (postincident inspection), in part to de-energize the battery and in part to help understand what happened. They also often pull any remaining data they can from the computers (yes, even after a fire, they can recover a lot of information).

This is a fascinating read about various EV fires investigated by the NTSB

Ford's Mach-E ERG

Ford's F-150 Lightning ERG

Spoiler: From the Lightning ERG

6. In case of fire
Follow Existing Training and Incident Commander Direction

WARNING: ELECTRIC VEHICLES WITH DAMAGED HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERIES REQUIRE SPECIAL HANDLING PRECAUTIONS. INSPECT THE VEHICLE CAREFULLY FOR LEAKING BATTERY FLUIDS, SPARKS, FLAMES, AND GURGLING OR BUBBLING SOUNDS. CONTACT EMERGENCY SERVICES IMMEDIATELY IF ANY OF THESE PROBLEMS ARE OBSERVED. FAILURE TO FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS MAY RESULT IN A VEHICLE FIRE AND PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH.

WARNING: FIRES IN CRASH-DAMAGED ELECTRIC VEHICLES MAY EMIT TOXIC OR COMBUSTIBLE GASSES. SMALL AMOUNTS OF EYE, SKIN OR LUNG IRRITANTS MAY BE PRESENT. WEAR PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT (PPE) AND SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS WHEN WORKING IN CLOSE PROXIMITY OR IN A CONFINED AREA, SUCH AS A TUNNEL OR GARAGE. VENTILATE THE VEHICLE INTERIOR BY OPENING VEHICLE WINDOWS OR DOORS. VENTILATE THE WORKING AREA. FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS INSTRUCTION MAY RESULT IN SERIOUS PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH.

If the vehicle is on fire, use a Class ABC powder-type extinguisher to contain and smother the flames. If water is being used, LARGE amounts of water is required to extinguish the flames. A fire-hydrant or dedicated fire hose can supply the needed amount. Water can cause some degree of arcing/shorting across the cell and/or battery terminals; it can also react with the electrolyte from the cells to generate additional combustible gas and other byproducts such as hydrofluoric acid. However, the cooling and smothering effects of flushing the affected article with large amounts of water and/or other fire suppression material is still beneficial for minimizing the severity of the event.

This guide provides only supplemental information as it pertains to these vehicles. The same rules apply when approaching any potential High Voltage situation. Always follow your High Voltage safety training. Some precautions to observe in a High Voltage situation include: Wear the necessary PPEs such as High Voltage rubber gloves, face shield, insulated boots, protective raincoat and apron. Bring the following equipment:

Class ABC powder-type fire extinguisher. A non-conductive object, about 1.5 m (5 ft) long, to safely push someone away from the vehicle if they accidentally come in contact with a damaged electric vehicle.

 

[mikeinet]

Emergency Response Guides (ERGs) are standard for all P/H/BEV manufacturers. ISO has a set of standards for the ERGs and US vehicles are expected to follow that standard. The ISO standards were updated in 2022 and the ERGs for Ford's Mustang and earlier EVs are not fully compliant with the new standards, but the ERGs are in pretty good shape--they're just a little less easy to read.

The incident commander needs to have read the ERG or at least familiarized themselves with the basics.

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) provides a number of specific trainings, and I believe various manufacturers do as well. I do not know if Ford provides in-person training nor if they provide video training, but I'd be surprised if they don't.

Ford has almost certainly worked with a series of fire experts on how to protect responders from their vehicles to the extent possible, how to write the emergency response guides, and how to improve safety.

Usually a manufacturer engineer will accompany the NTSB and local authorities during an after action assessment (postincident inspection), in part to de-energize the battery and in part to help understand what happened. They also often pull any remaining data they can from the computers (yes, even after a fire, they can recover a lot of information).

This is a fascinating read about various EV fires investigated by the NTSB

Ford's Mach-E ERG

Ford's F-150 Lightning ERG

100% everything here.

There are also multiple EV First Responder training courses (of which I have taken) that goes through all of this. Talks about techniques, "do" and "dont dos" etc.

Overall -- EVs are "new" still.... (in comparison to a ICE car... ) - like anything new... changing old practices takes time for everyone to learn and understand...

But there is a lot of great materials out there.

Google any car and "<vendor> EV Emergency Response Guide" and you'll find the appropriate responses (tesla, rivian, etc.)- they're super detailed and also just great common knowledge for how your car works.

 

[Teslaeata]

I hope that @Ford Motor Company takes this opportunity to get their hands on that vehicle, take it apart, and figure out what the root cause of the fire was.... and then publish it. It might remove a lot of the random guesses and concerns.

Second, I hope that Ford releases a 'first responder' guide & training video... including the location of the HV disconnect (hidden under frunk beauty cover), proper procedure for tow truck divers to disconnect HV in cases of crashes to prevent fires from shorts outside the battery tray from body damage, how to extinguish/contain fires once they start, etc.

I just did a little reading.... and was surprised to find that typical foam used for electrical fires *probably wont* work on Li battery fires since once they get going they genererate their own oxygen ?! I did find one article indicating there is a product that is designed to slide under the car, punch up into the battery tray, and pump the battery tray full of water..... Has anyone else found 'recommended' new tools for fire fighters? https://www.keloland.com/keloland-com-original/how-are-electric-vehicle-fires-put-out/

There is an emergency responder online facility in UK, must be one in US so responders have at their fingertips wiring cut points, isolators, that there are no HV cables above door handle height, voltages and other important information.

I’m not sure a fire generates its own Oxygen! Don’t think the science supports that theory.

Have seen a large fire blanket used for a thermal runaway where covering the car apparently entirely extinguished the fire by starving it of oxygen but when the blanket was removed the fire restarted like it can when apparently extinguished by water, batteries can burst back into flames.

Fortunately, contrary to the lazy, prejudiced propagandist press and other EV bashers, such incidents are rare.

With respect to the Polish MME fire, makers do send their own forensic fire investigators to see these fires but never publish the results unless they wish to make a PR point.

Manufacturers’ approach is ADR - always deny responsibility!

 

[Teslaeata]

100% everything here.

There are also multiple EV First Responder training courses (of which I have taken) that goes through all of this. Talks about techniques, "do" and "dont dos" etc.

Overall -- EVs are "new" still.... (in comparison to a ICE car... ) - like anything new... changing old practices takes time for everyone to learn and understand...

But there is a lot of great materials out there.

Google any car and "<vendor> EV Emergency Response Guide" and you'll find the appropriate responses (tesla, rivian, etc.)- they're super detailed and also just great common knowledge for how your car works.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/dam/aem_fleet/en_us/fleet/showroom/resources/2021_Mach-E_ERG.pdf

 

[kodiakng]

I’m not sure a fire generates its own Oxygen! Don’t think the science supports that theory.

i'm not sure what @dtbaker61 saw specifically but this video describes the process that involves metal oxide combustion releasing oxygen gas (section around 5:10):

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I’m not sure a fire generates its own Oxygen! Don’t think the science supports that theory.

There are several self-oxidizing fuels that don't require atmospheric oxygen to create conflagrations.
Gunpowder, H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), several other rocket fuels, several fluorine and chlorine compounds... Lithium salts in car batteries are self-oxidizing.

Sponsored