Analysis: Tesla's rivals scrap for thin slices of US EV sales

[nvabill]

Interesting article in Reuters today, Tesla continues to dominate by at least 10 to 1.

https://stocks.apple.com/ATbywL9LdR7yyVmjs_k7tOw

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[Pioneer74]

If Ford would improve their products to compete with Tesla, maybe things would be different. Instead of a Rally version, Ford could have made useful upgrades to better compete. Heat pump, higher voltage traction battery to improve charging and maybe even improved their horrible navigation system.

 

[Jimrpa]

If Ford would improve their products to compete with Tesla, maybe things would be different. Instead of a Rally version, Ford could have made useful upgrades to better compete. Heat pump, higher voltage traction battery to improve charging and maybe even improved their horrible navigation system.

Why a heat pump? They’re not very good when it’s cold. Also, an electric resistance heater is much less complex.

 

[Blue highway]

Why a heat pump? They’re not very good when it’s cold. Also, an electric resistance heater is much less complex.

Because they are better than resistive heat in all temperatures.... And for lots of experienced EV people they are purchase points.

 

[Jimrpa]

Because they are better than resistive heat in all temperatures.... And for lots of experienced EV people they are purchase points.

Having lived in heat pump heated homes in the mid-Atlantic and Southeastern US, I can assure you that heat pumps are horribly inefficient when the temperature gets close to 32F and pretty much useless below that. Consider: all heat pump systems have “emergency” or “auxiliary “ resistance heat strips in the air handler. Those wouldn’t be there if heat pumps were truly the miracle system they’re pitched to be. They are more cost effective to operate in moderate temperatures.

 

[RickMachE]

Consumer Reports showed that a heat pump in the dead of winter provides no advantage.

 

[Vulnox]

If Ford would improve their products to compete with Tesla, maybe things would be different. Instead of a Rally version, Ford could have made useful upgrades to better compete. Heat pump, higher voltage traction battery to improve charging and maybe even improved their horrible navigation system.

People can nitpick over the items you listed, but it doesn't change the reality that the UX is pretty awful if you aren't using CarPlay or possibly Android Auto. You can also get a Model Y for a good deal less than an MME. A more expensive Rally version isn't going to change that.

The MME and other competitors have many advantages over Tesla, this is anything but me saying a Tesla is a better vehicle overall. We test drove a MY before we ordered the MME, and the list of reasons it's worse than the MME is longer than the list of reasons it is better, and a top spot on that better list goes away once the Supercharger network opens.

BUT! To many buyers, they will experience three main things on a test drive, for most:
1. The performance, which is on par and in some models better than the MME
2. The price, which is on par and in most cases a good deal better than the MME, especially after tax credit, and when comparing performance.
3. The base UI, as most MME potential buyers are likely not going through the full CarPlay hook up, they are just satisfied to know it's there. But if they try to navigate the base MME UI vs. the most-things-right-there (including Apple Music, Spotify, Podcasts, etc) Tesla UI, and Google Maps built in, etc, well...

I feel Ford overall has the better product, for us anyway. The range is on-par with direct competition, the charging rate isn't the fastest, but when you go full curve and not just peak, it's good enough for most trips. The interior is better than any direct competitor I have sat in so far, including the MY, id.4, and Kia/Hyundai twins.

Ford just needs to find a way to get competitive with price, and stop giving the UX development to the cheapest labor they can find.

 

[heisnuts]

I really do not see how anything is going to change in the near future. Tesla just has the better product right now for a cheaper price. Given current conditions, I don't see an easy path for the competitors to make advances anytime soon. The big 3's labor costs alone will be a boat anchor around their necks, before you even factor in the superior charging network.

It is really saying something when you even have members of Congress who say they have concerns about companies like Tesla, but then own a Tesla and keep saying they are "looking" to get rid of it "soon".

 

[kodiakng]

Having lived in heat pump heated homes in the mid-Atlantic and Southeastern US, I can assure you that heat pumps are horribly inefficient when the temperature gets close to 32F and pretty much useless below that. Consider: all heat pump systems have “emergency” or “auxiliary “ resistance heat strips in the air handler. Those wouldn’t be there if heat pumps were truly the miracle system they’re pitched to be. They are more cost effective to operate in moderate temperatures.

Consumer Reports showed that a heat pump in the dead of winter provides no advantage.

heat pumps today are MUCH more efficient than your past experiences. leave your shackles behind.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/14/1068582/everything-you-need-to-know-about-heat-pumps/

 

[Blue highway]

Having lived in heat pump heated homes in the mid-Atlantic and Southeastern US, I can assure you that heat pumps are horribly inefficient when the temperature gets close to 32F and pretty much useless below that. Consider: all heat pump systems have “emergency” or “auxiliary “ resistance heat strips in the air handler. Those wouldn’t be there if heat pumps were truly the miracle system they’re pitched to be. They are more cost effective to operate in moderate temperatures.

yep, I've had a few as well... they are "horrible" in the cold but still better than resistive heat. And since the car will "need" and AC unit, using it as a heat pump doesn't add as much cost as you would think.

FWIW, the next EV I buy will have one.

 

[RickMachE]

heat pumps today are MUCH more efficient than your past experiences. leave your shackles behind.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/14/1068582/everything-you-need-to-know-about-heat-pumps/

Sigh....

CR Tests Show Electric Car Range Can Fall Far Short of Claims Temperature and other driving conditions have an impact; Tesla doesn't meet range claims year round

Note the part of the article heading about Tesla LYING about range year round...

 

[dj_stang]

Why a heat pump? They’re not very good when it’s cold. Also, an electric resistance heater is much less complex.

It’s just using the air conditioner with one extra part (reversing valve). Also you still need a resistive backup, but it saves a lot of efficiency using half or less of the energy, which is what matters at the end of the day.

 

[kodiakng]

Sigh....

CR Tests Show Electric Car Range Can Fall Far Short of Claims Temperature and other driving conditions have an impact; Tesla doesn't meet range claims year round

Note the part of the article heading about Tesla LYING about range year round...

sigh... that article is about tesla range claims and contains exactly zero "heat pump" references.

 

[Blue highway]

I really do not see how anything is going to change in the near future. Tesla just has the better product right now for a cheaper price. Given current conditions, I don't see an easy path for the competitors to make advances anytime soon. The big 3's labor costs alone will be a boat anchor around their necks, before you even factor in the superior charging network.

It is really saying something when you even have members of Congress who say they have concerns about companies like Tesla, but then own a Tesla and keep saying they are "looking" to get rid of it "soon".

Tesla is using the Model T playbook. Vertically integrate, drive cost out, and decontent... They can reduce costs below competitors cost of production and still be profitable.

Push comes to shove the Tesla cost advantage is now and will continue to be crushing. The UAW isn't helping. I expect the shift to EVs will result in more offshoring and more automation simply from a cost standpoint.

 

[BadgerGreg]

Because they are better than resistive heat in all temperatures.... And for lots of experienced EV people they are purchase points.

Having owned/driven both a MME AWD ER and a BMW i4 M50 (the i4 has a heat pump), I can say that the heat pump advantage is a bit overstated. Yeah, the heat pump is certainly more efficient when you get into the temp envelope of 30-50 degrees F, but the car's range and battery performance takes a significant hit regardless of the cabin heat source.

The i4 is efficient with the heat pump, but through the coldest months of winter, both cars were ~20% less efficient overall. During the transitional months (Oct-Nov and Feb-Mar) the efficiency loss was probably a *bit* less with the heat pump, but it didn't make the ownership experience any better or worse for either car.

As long as you precondition the car, heat pump v. resistive heat makes zero difference about 80% of the time, and a small difference the rest of the time.

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